Q91 Mr Bacon: If you do that it would make a much bigger chart; that would be very helpful. Secondly, could you make the chart include those other train operators which are listed in figure 1, they are outside the box in figure 1?
Mr Payne: All the franchises.
Q92 Mr Bacon: In other words the SRA ones as well as yours so it is a much bigger chart, much more inclusive.4
Mr Payne: Yes, we can do that.
Q93 Mr Bacon: That would be very helpful indeed. I want to ask about 4.3, Dr Mitchell, on page 24 where it says in (i) of 4.3 that the train operators "self certify" that they are meeting the contractual obligations. If they are self certifying how do you actually know that they are meeting those contractual obligations because it is fairly easy to fill in a form saying we have met these contractual obligations in the following respects to do with performance or investment or service quality or whatever, tick the box, sign it and send it off to you at DfT. How do you actually know, if they are self certifying, that they have actually done it?
Dr Mitchell: They have to provide evidence either in the form of a description of what their methodology is or in some cases even photographs of what they have done or indeed examples of their calculations. We expect them to self certify but no new evidence.
Q94 Mr Bacon: I was quite surprised to see that service quality is not actually something to which you attach financial penalties or rewards as well as not undertaking direct monitoring. Am I to take it from that that if I am a train operator and I choose to allow the service quality to decline, I can do so knowing I will not be financially penalised? That is what that says, is it not?
Dr Mitchell: Yes, it is.
Q95 Mr Bacon: Why would I not allow my service quality to decline then?
Dr Mitchell: Train companies do not generally do that, but having said that in the new South Central franchise we have included that as a requirement and we have included the Passenger Focus independent watchdog as a means of suggesting how we can do that.
Q96 Mr Bacon: Are you aware of the controversy surrounding National Express East Anglia's service from Liverpool Street to Norwich about the restaurant car which has been the subject of a lot of publicity?
Dr Mitchell: I am aware of it, yes.
Mr Bacon: They are replacing-the word that they used at one time was enhancing-the service, this is to say instead of getting a nice cooked meal you are going to be able to get a pasty; instead of getting a cooked breakfast in the morning you are going to be able to get some yoghurt and this is an enhancement apparently.
Chairman: It will do you good anyway.
Q97 Mr Bacon: It probably would, although representing a big pig-producing area I would prefer a cooked breakfast and so would my farmers. What discussions have taken place between the train operator, in this case National Express East Anglia, and the DfT to ensure that in making these changes they are complying with their franchise obligations? They will say-they have said to me-it is all in compliance, but do you know if it is in compliance?
Dr Mitchell: Yes, it is in compliance. As I mentioned in an earlier answer we have regular monthly meetings with the train companies and a major feature of that is the extent to which they are delivering the obligations they have within their franchise agreement. So although I do not know at which meeting that would have been discussed I am certain that that feature would have been discussed at the regular meetings.
Q98 Mr Bacon: If you could send us a note on it;5 there are a lot of people in East Anglia who would like to know more about it. It would be very helpful if you could send us a bit more detail. Am I to understand also that there is a person within the DfT whose direct responsibility is to be the chief interlocutor between the train operating company and your directorate? Do they have one train operating company each or how does it work?
Dr Mitchell: Generally speaking there is one franchise manager for each train company and usually a contract manager as well. The next level up obviously covers a number of franchises.
Q99 Mr Bacon: It says in paragraph 4.6 that you are operating with 40% fewer staff than the Strategic Rail Authority was and that may very well be to the good, it may be that they were overmanned or overstaffed, but it also says that you have tried to recruit from the rail industry but have found difficulty competing on salary because of perceptions of a less innovative ethos than the SRA and that within two years of the formation of the Rail Service Delivery Directorate in 2005 30% of the staff left. That does not suggest that it is a particularly happy environment, does it?
Dr Mitchell: The turnover of staff is not exceptionally high; we would normally expect people in the course of their careers to move on every two or three years, and it is important to remember that many of these staff had been in post at the SRA for some time. We do have difficulty, as the Report says, attracting and retaining staff because we do pay towards the bottom quartile of the competitor industry, which are effectively the railway companies. Most of our staff in the rail service delivery area come from the railway industry and usually go back to the railway industry; it is not an area that normally recruits from the wider civil service.
Q100 Mr Bacon: Mr Payne, you are the acting finance director, that is right, is it not?
Mr Payne: I am, correct.
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4 Ev 23
5 EV 24