Q161 Mr Mitchell: I am sorry, I think the fares are cheaper, the services are much more efficient and there are more of them and certainly the investment seems to be much higher in modern rolling stock and faster trains there than here?
Dr Mitchell: I do not accept the point on rolling stock. For example, the average fleet age of rolling stock in the UK is around about nine and a half years so in fact we have got the youngest rolling stock in the whole of Europe, so I would not accept that the rolling stock is older in this country than it is on the continent. Yes, we do have some old rolling stock, we spoke about it earlier, but there has been a huge volume of new rolling stock put in over the last few years.
Q162 Mr Bacon: Very quickly, the train operating companies recently changed the terms of open tickets, they used to be what was called an open return, you bought it and it was then valid for 30 days-that is to say you bought your ticket and then at any point in the next 30 days you could use the outward portion and then also, as long as it was used within 30 days, the return portion. Now there is a new ticket called euphemistically "any time" which is anything but, and I understand from talking to train staff on the Anglian service that this is a uniform agreement between all the train operating companies; you buy the ticket, it is only valid on the day that you buy it and then 30 days hence for the return, or if you want to buy it now but it be valid tomorrow or next Wednesday you have to say so and then the return portion is valid for 30 days hence from that date. What I do not understand is as a result of this change what benefit is there for passengers?
Dr Mitchell: The benefit is in terms of simplification of the fare offer. The railways were rightly criticised a couple of years ago for the very confusing range of tickets and the fact that each train company had a different name for what apparently were similar tickets.
Q163 Mr Bacon: The open return was called the same on each train operator and now it is called any time. Do you think it is helpful or confusing to call a ticket any time when it patently is not any time?
Dr Mitchell: The ticket is any time in the sense that you can travel on any train on that day.
Q164 Mr Bacon: My question is do you think it is helpful or do you think it is confusing to call a ticket any time when it is more restrictive than the one that you had before that was any time?
Dr Mitchell: I can understand the point you are making.
Q165 Mr Bacon: What is the answer to my question, is it more helpful or is it confusing?
Dr Mitchell: What I would say is that the train companies took the view, in response to a request from us to simplify their offer, that this was one way in which they could simplify the offer and make sure that they did in fact-
Q166 Mr Bacon: Dr Mitchell, you have just given me an answer which is not an answer to my question. You told me what the train companies took the view of; if I had said what view did the train companies take then I would have expected the answer you gave; my question was do you think it is more helpful or do you think it is more confusing?
Dr Mitchell: I think it is more helpful.
Q167 Mr Bacon: Do you? Why? If it says any time and it is not any time surely it is more confusing.
Dr Mitchell: I do not agree. The fact is that it is available for any time on that day and the return portion can be used any time-
Q168 Mr Bacon: This is the point, it does not say any time on that day, it just says any time and in plain English any time has only one meaning. I will tell you this: the staff clipping the tickets did not know. Certainly on the National Express East Anglia service they did not know either, they had to be told after the event. It is plain on its face that it is not helpful, it is plain on its face that it is more confusing. I am amazed that you can say the opposite.
Dr Mitchell: I gave you my view.
Geraldine Smith: Could I possibly come in on that point because you really are out of touch if you think that is more helpful because it causes all sorts of problems. If you pay, as I did today, £399 for an open ticket and you find that for some reason you cannot travel today, you have to travel tomorrow, that ticket you cannot use.
Mr Bacon: That is exactly what happened; it is suddenly invalid.
Geraldine Smith: How can that be more helpful?
Mr Bacon: You are paying full price, you are not paying a discounted price; this is a full fare that is not any time at all.
Q169 Geraldine Smith: It does not give you flexibility.
Dr Mitchell: It all depends how clear the offer is made to people who are then buying it.
Q170 Geraldine Smith: How can you say that is more helpful when you cannot have a flexible ticket?
Dr Mitchell: I would accept that if that is not made clear then that is obviously not helpful.
Geraldine Smith: Even if it is made clear-it is not made clear because depending on the people on the train some know that you have got to use it on that day and some people do not know, but having said that how can you say it is more helpful because that ticket is no longer fully flexible because it must be used on a certain day for the outward journey.
Chairman: I am trying to help, Dr Mitchell, so that you do not dig yourself into a hole; why not go away and try and think of a more helpful answer.
Mr Bacon: Essentially you have got a diminution of service but you are still paying full fare. How that can be an enhancement, how that can be clearer, how that can be of benefit? How that can be anything other than more confusing when you call it any time and it is not I do not know.
Chairman: Why do you not go away and just think about it, Dr Mitchell. Thank you very much.7
Mr Williams: It is misleading.
Chairman: That concludes our public hearing. All I will say in conclusion is that in a time of recession where the prices are falling heavily in many industries I am sure you will agree, Dr Mitchell, that passengers will be rightly infuriated if any prices rise above inflation. That is one point I would like to make. The second point I would like to make is if you do move towards more airline type ticketing- you yourself mentioned Easy jet-it is one thing to book on the internet for aircraft travel but many people, particularly elderly people, find using the internet difficult so it would be unfortunate in my view if all these cheap fares were increasingly concentrated on the internet. That is my personal opinion. Thank you very much; that concludes our public hearing. If any members of the public or the press could now leave as quickly as possible we would be very grateful.
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