Q101 Mr Bacon: I have been trying for several years to get to the bottom of how big is PFI, and that is really what lies behind my question, Mr Pocklington, I am trying to get to the bottom of the question how big is PFI, and it seems to be quite difficult to get an accurate answer. I have been told by various people, including by the National Audit Office, answers such as, "Well, really they do not know," which is I presume why it was, and it was referred to, Mr Kingman, in your answer to my question 150, that there has been a "detailed and resource-intensive exercise covering more than 500 projects that have been signed over 15 years", you make it sound like it was big of you to do this resource-intensive exercise to find out how much of my and others' constituents' money you are spending. So perhaps the NAO when they told me casually that they were not actually sure that you knew were correct, but you must have some notion of what is the likely amount of debt to arise therefrom going forward?
Mr Pocklington: The total stock of PFI projects has a capital value of approximately-
Q102 Mr Bacon: We have been through that. £54.55 billion, although if you look on your website-and I am going to come on to your website in a minute- it is actually now £58.067 when I printed that off this afternoon, so it has gone up by about £4 billion since you sent your note in. On page F16 the note says it is £54.55 billion in the Report we published on 15 May but presumably the website is accurate, is it?
Mr Pocklington: The Treasury website contains our best available information on the capital funding-
Q103 Mr Bacon: Hang on, when you say Treasury website, I am talking about the Partnerships UK website where it gives present PFI projects data. Is that what you are referring to as well, is it?
Mr Pocklington: There are different databases. What I am referring to is the Treasury website which contains all PFI projects and is the basis of the evidence that Mr Kingman sent to this Committee.
Q104 Mr Bacon: Partnerships UK comes under the Treasury, does it not? Yes? No?
Mr Pocklington: Partnerships UK-
Mr Stewart: It is a joint venture project. The Treasury has a 49% stake in Partnerships UK so it is not-
Q105 Mr Bacon: Nonetheless, your number is £58.067 billion. Presumably it is more up-to-date, it includes the more recently signed deals?
Mr Stewart: There are some differences now between our database and the Treasury database because ours contains some historic projects which the Treasury recently took off their database.
Q106 Mr Bacon: I want to come on to the website but actually, Mr Pocklington, you were apparently trying-I am not sure you were trying to, that is unfair-or you were missing my point which is that I am not after the capital value (we have already discussed capital value, that was in my first question) my question is this bit underneath about PFI signed deals recording capital values and not the debt amount likely to arise therefrom. My first question was what is the debt amount likely to arise therefrom and I have been waiting for an answer for the last few minutes.
Mr Pocklington: The projected unitary charge payment for 2007-08 is £7.3 billion.
Q107 Mr Bacon: And over the life, because we know in the case of each PFI project how long it is supposed to last because we have a term of it, if you add them all up, what is the likely amount of debt to arise therefrom?
Mr Pocklington: Table C19 from the Budget document includes our latest estimate for the years 2006-07 to 2033-32 on an annual basis.
Q108MrBacon: If you add it all up what do you get?
Mr Pocklington: We have not published a number and I am afraid I am not able to add them up here.
Q109 Mr Bacon: Well, it is £7 billion this year, roughly £7 billion next year.
Mr Pocklington: It is £7.8 million next year, £8.2 million, £8.5 million-
Q110 Mr Bacon: Just in the next four or five years it is £7 or £8 billion a year so for the next five years it is £40 billion; is that right?
Mr Pocklington: More or less, approximately.