Q41 Mr Williams: NAO?
Ms Leahy: Sorry, it is actually A3.2 on page 20 and there is a paragraph at the end of that page which does give some of the evidence.
Q42 Jon Trickett: I went to A3.4 and could not find it.
Ms Leahy: I am very sorry.
Q43 Jon Trickett: I did not get this until Monday. I think it does demonstrate the problems we are being faced with by being given late information.
Ms Leahy: Sorry. It is the last paragraph on page 20.
Q44 Jon Trickett: It is not A3.4, that does not exist.
Ms Leahy: I am sorry, it is page 20, A3.2.
Q45 Jon Trickett: I do not want to say it is shoddy but it is not helpful when we get Reports at the last minute and it mentions paragraphs which are not there. This is a key part of the text. I want finally, if I have time left, to go to the first Report, paragraph 2.36 on page 25. Mr Williams has already referred to this discussion. I understand you, Mr Rowlands, to say that the risk is £190 million on the private sector?
Mr Rowlands: On the debt, yes.
Q46 Jon Trickett: Yes, on the debt. Yet the public sector appears to have been penalised by £450 million because of the risk which the private sector is taking. Am I understanding that correctly?
Mr Rowlands: No, this is not the totality of the risks taken by the private sector because the equity is at risk put up by the infrastructure companies as well. There is a table elsewhere in the Report that sets out the detail of that.
Q47 Jon Trickett: This sentence which you have agreed to, which we have only had 48 hours to look at, says: "although they ultimately carry risk reduced to 5% or less…" and you have told us that is £190 million, "…lenders are charging about £450 million more than they would charge on some £3,800 million of direct Government loans…" I can only draw the £190 million comparison of risk to the private sector to the additional £450 million cost which you have agreed to on behalf of the taxpayers and draw the conclusion that is one of the worst deals ever in front of the Committee of Public Accounts.
Mr Rowlands: This says that if the Government had paid this money directly it would have saved £450 million over it being supplied by the private debt markets. If we had been supplying the money directly we would have been taking on, I think, the risk inherent in a set of assets whose state is unknown to everybody.
Mr Williams: You see, Mr Rowlands, of the £3,800 million £3,610 million is guaranteed by the Government.
Jon Trickett: Exactly. It is more than that. Elsewhere in the Report we find the Government has written letters of comfort to the private sector, presumably giving them some further certainty as well. This must be one of the worst deals ever put in front of the Committee of Public Accounts, quite frankly. How you can say this is demonstrably value for money I do not know frankly. Anyway, my time is more or less up.
Q48 Mr Bacon: May I say to start with that I too am glad there will be another opportunity to look at this. I do not feel I have had enough time to prepare. There has to be a reasonable gap between publication of the Report and our meeting, so I welcome that agreement from you earlier. Mr O'Toole, you work at the headquarters of London Underground at St James's Park tube station?
Mr O'Toole: Yes.
Q49 Mr Bacon: Do you take the Tube to work?
Mr O'Toole: Yes, I take the Tube everywhere I go.
Q50 Mr Bacon: You do. So you are aware that there are delays and you experience them yourself?
Mr O'Toole: Yes.