Q141 Mr Jenkins: Do you think that was overplayed?
Mr Rowlands: No, I do not think it was overplayed. The costs that have gone in and as bid in these contracts are a reflection of the risk inherent in remediating the assets, the risk inherent in introducing line upgrades. This Report itself acknowledges that the Central Line upgrade that was undertaken by the old Underground was six years late and 31% over budget. Over time what has been driven out is the cost of remediating the assets and the cost of the risk involved in undertaking these works and integrating the track, trains and signalling system.
Mr Jenkins: It is just that I thought well since the administration is nearly as much as the asset maintenance cost maybe they should have given extra money for the uncertainness of the administration costs; I am not sure we do that. My time is up.
Jim Sheridan: I do not have any questions to ask for two reasons. Mainly I agree with my colleagues that I think it is important we have some quality time to look in detail at this Report and, secondly, what initial findings I have found in this Report have already been covered by my colleagues. Perhaps we should have another look at this Report another time and, given what I have read, maybe we should get the Fraud Squad to look at it as well. I am reminded of the Secretary of State for Transport's comment yesterday when he said that he comes to work under a black cloud and that black cloud is called "Looking for money for public transport". All I would say is perhaps if he stops this gravy train we will maybe get some money for public transport. Other than that I would just welcome the opportunity to have a detailed look at this Report.
Mr Williams: I do not think any of you need feel obligated to respond to what Mr Sheridan has indicated. Extra time, so you know, we give each other a set time and then we can ask supplementary questions. Mr Bacon?
Q142 Mr Bacon: First of all, Mr O'Toole, can I just check, from what you were saying in answer to an earlier question it sounds like you think bond financing would probably have been better, is that right?
Mr O'Toole: Given my background, I would like to be able to control the whole enterprise if I could. I come from operating a railway where I had an engineering department, a maintenance department and an operating department and certainly it clarified the lines of authority in a way that this structure does not provide.
Q143 Mr Bacon: It is true by the time you came on board in July 2003 this had pretty much been decided?
Mr O'Toole: Right.
Q144 Mr Bacon: Nonetheless, London Underground and Mr Kiley had been giving advice and its views to the Department of Transport prior to your arrival?
Mr O'Toole: That is my understanding.
Q145 Mr Bacon: There must be documents in London Underground, prior to your arrival, containing advice that you had given to the Department of Transport on your preferences for bond financing?
Mr O'Toole: Not that I had given but that TfL had given.
Q146 Mr Bacon: I am sorry, the TfL had given.
Mr O'Toole: Right, not in London Underground.
Q147 MrBacon: Is it possible that any of these could be forwarded to the Committee?
Mr O'Toole: I am confident that TfL would welcome the opportunity to forward those documents.11
Q148 Mr Bacon: I would like to see what advice was given to the Department of Transport about the likelihood of value for money being produced by the option which was eventually arrived at.
Mr O'Toole: I will pass the request on.
Mr Callaghan: If I might say, Mr Bacon, I might save you some effort. London Underground published two reports called the Final Assessment Report and the Update to the Final Assessment Report which summarised everything Mr Kiley had to say at some length. Rather than forcing you to go back to the original document you might find everything you need there.
Mr Bacon: Thank you very much.
Q149 Mr Williams: Can I ask NAO, before we leave that, if you send it to NAO at the same time I wonder if the NAO could do a brief critique of it for the Committee in case we have a further hearing.12
Sir John Bourn: I would be glad to do that.
Mr Callaghan: These are in fact public documents and they are still on the Tube's website.
Q150 Mr Bacon: Mr Rowlands, do you agree with the National Audit Office that the public sector comparator is pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo which confers a spurious precision, which replaces thinking with modelling and is often not information but just noise?
Mr Rowlands: I do not remember the exact quote in the Report.
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11 Documents provided, not printed.