Q11 Chairman: You are not even that curious? You are not curious to find out who did not reply?
Mr Abadie: Again, we are looking for information from all the projects. It may be on a detailed list.
Q12 Chairman: Why did you not ask the NAO who did not reply?
Mr Abadie: The NAO followed up with those projects subsequently, after the initial survey. We told the NAO in-
Q13 Chairman: I am terrible at remembering titles, but are you not supposed to be the head of a PFI policy team?
Mr Abadie: I am.
Q14 Chairman: And yet you have not even shown marginal curiosity at the fact that half the people questioned did not deign to provide the information or a reason for not providing the information. And you did not even ask the Comptroller and Auditor General who they might be. Is that a fact?
Mr Abadie: I would like to clarify that. We supported the NAO in trying to gather the data in the first place. As part of its inquiry into all the projects that had undertaken refinancing, we agreed that Treasury could be mentioned in the letter. So it is not a case that we were not involved in the data gathering at all; we were part of the process of gathering that data in the first instance.
Q15 Chairman: Sir John, you made repeated attempts to get that information?
Sir John Bourn: Yes.
Q16 Chairman: And they just ignored you, despite the fact that they had been told that they might be called before this Committee? We might consider that.
Sir John Bourn: Yes.
Q17 Chairman: Can you let us have a list of the names?
Sir John Bourn: Certainly.
Q18 Chairman: Can you let us have a list of the projects and the value of them? Can you tell each of them that we are considering the possibility of calling them before us unless we get the information that wehave asked for, or a good explanation of why it is not available? Will you do that?1
Sir John Bourn: Yes.
Q19 Chairman: Mr Abadie, in your oversight role in relation to PFI across the spectrum, will you also make sure that same message goes forward?
Mr Abadie: Yes. 2
Q20 The Chairman: Well, that is helpful, thank you-belated but helpful. Now, what about this new technique of selling shares? Instead of refinancing, shares in the project are being sold. How far is that a device to deprive the public of the share that they might get under the existing refinancing arrangements? Does it have that effect even if it was not intended to?
Mr Kingman: Maybe I could try to answer that. I do not think that it is correct to see equity transactions as an alternative to PFI refinancing. The evidence that we have and the evidence in the Report is that projects where there have been changes in equity holdings have been more likely to be refinanced than others. We believe that refinancings and equity sales are different kinds of transactions. Perhaps I can try to explain why. A refinancing takes place within a project. It changes the contractual basis and the terms of trade between the public sector purchaser and the provider in the private sector. We think that it is absolutely right that major value for money issues can arise there, and that is why it is right to go after a share of the gains.
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1 Ev
2 Note by witness: The request, for projects identified as providing incomplete or no initial responses, to provide complete data has gone out from the NAO. The NAO's letter rightly emphasised that their request had full Treasury endorsement.