Q31 Mr Touhig: Why?
Mr Abadie: From a policy point of view, we have established the framework in which refinancings take place. The decision about what is or is not value for money, as the case may be, is the responsibility of the accounting officer of the Department or authority concerned.
Q32 Mr Touhig: Does anybody in the Treasury have a particular interest in protecting the public's interest in these matters?
Mr Abadie: Yes, most definitely. Within the Treasury, we have established the refinancing taskforce. We fund a couple of people to act-
Q33 Mr Touhig: Is there any one person?
Mr Abadie: Two people.
Q34 Mr Touhig: There are two people responsible for looking to the public interest in any refinancing project?
Mr Abadie: That is quite correct.
Q35 Mr Touhig: The Chairman alluded in his comments to the killing that was made on the refinancing of the Norfolk and Norwich hospital PFI. You do not have to approve each PFI refinancing, but you do have two people to look at each project. In what detail do they do so ?
Mr Abadie: The mandate of the refinancing taskforce has changed a little over time, but it is principally a supporting body. Authorities that want to use the refinancing taskforce are entitled to do so. It sits in an advisory capacity, advising on good practice. At the time of the Norfolk and Norwich and the Bromley hospitals, and probably Debden Park school as well, the refinancing taskforce might have been involved and concluded that policy was complied with.
Q36 Mr Touhig: But the Treasury has an overview of all that?
Mr Abadie: Yes.
Q37 Mr Touhig: You are a pushover then, really, are you not?
Mr Kingman: My reading of the NAO's Report is not that we have a situation in which there are a large number of public sector purchasers which are not following the code, or not driving it through, so as to secure the gains. Were that the case, we would want to be more hands-on than we are. Actually, we have a good dialogue with the key purchasing Departments, and I think that the evidence of the Report is that the code is being followed.
Q38 Mr Touhig: You have good dialogue to let purchasers make a good deal of extra money at the public's expense. Barclays and Innisfree made large gains on the Darent Valley and the Norfolk and Norwich hospital projects. Who at the Treasury makes sure that after a refinancing takes place, we continue toget value for money and that the projects are well managed in the public interest?
Mr Kingman: That is the responsibility of the Departments that purchase the projects.
Q39 Mr Touhig: So you do not have much of a role, do you?
Mr Kingman: We have a clear role in policy, and we had a very important role in instituting, negotiating and establishing the code successfully, such that the gains are realised.
Q40 Mr Touhig: You do not seem to want to police it-you are quite arm's length in all of this.
Mr Kingman: I do not see the Report painting a picture of a code that is not being policed.