Q121 Mr Khan: You are saying that one of the incentives that private investors have is the huge profits that they may make-obviously some will not be successful-on two things: refinancing and selling shares?
Mr Kingman: They can make money in a number of forms, yes.
Q122 Mr Khan: So why are you not saying more loudly and clearly, "Look, PAC, calm down. You guys have got your knickers in a twist about something that we always expected to happen."?
Mr Kingman: I am not sure that it is for us to tell the PAC to calm down or otherwise-
Q123 Mr Khan: Let me tell you why. I am surprised by the timidity of your answers to the Chairman's assertions of negligence/incompetence and of your failure to negotiate proper proceeds to the taxpayer and your reliance on the voluntary code. The code clearly is not working, is it?
Mr Kingman: On the contrary, the evidence is supportive. The NAO says that the code is generally working.
Q124 Mr Khan: What was the prediction? How much money should we have got by now from the voluntary code?
Mr Kingman: I do not understand your question: how much money should we have got? 30% is what we should have got and 30% is what we have got.
Q125 Mr Khan: There is no shortage in the figures?
Mr Kingman: No.
Q126 Mr Khan: I thought that there was a £93 million figure versus £200 million.
Mr Kingman: That was an estimate.
Q127 Mr Khan: Oh, it was an estimate. So it is okay?
Mr Kingman: It was not a target.
Mr Khan: Oh, I beg your pardon.
Mr Kingman: I think it would be quite wrong for it to be a target.
Q128 Mr Khan: Mr Kingman, have you read the Report?
Mr Kingman: Yes.
Q129 Mr Khan: I think that my time is almost up. I cannot see either targets or estimates defined in the glossary at the back of the Report. I hope that for the next report you will talk to the NAO and make sure that I can understand the difference between an estimate and a target. When I see an estimate for those sorts of savings and they are not made, I am quite disappointed by it. I am paraphrasing, but you are saying, "Look, it wasn't a target, so it's okay."
Mr Kingman: I am saying that it was an estimate given in good faith of what Peter Gershon predicted would be the outcome. However, it was clear at that time that there were enormous uncertainties and he was clear about that.
Q130 Mr Khan: May I ask you about the offshore tax shelters that we are told in paragraph 3.6 some of these companies use to avoid paying tax when they sell their PFI shares? Should we be concerned about that?
Mr Kingman: I am not sure that that is what paragraph 3.6 says.