Q31 Geraldine Smith: It is not your intention to do that at any stage?
Mr Byles: Absolutely.
Geraldine Smith: There were news reports in The Times.
Q32 Dr Pugh: On the prospectus for this the government intends to do something or other to every secondary school in the country. 50% they are going to rebuild. 35% are going to be extensively remodelled and 15% are going to be refurbished. I would really like to know what the average age of the secondary school estate is. Have you any idea?
Mr Byles: Yes. 80% of the secondary school estate is over 20 years old.
Q33 Dr Pugh: How does that compare with the primary school estate?
Mr Byles: I am afraid I do not have that information. I can let you know.
Q34 Dr Pugh: I suspect that the primary school estate is a good deal older. Could you send us a note?3 I do not expect you to have the figures. Of the schools that have been completed so far under this programme, a certain number will have been rebuilt. A certain number will have been extensively remodelled and a certain number will have been refurbished. What has been done to each individual school, whether it fits into one category or another? Can you give us an idea of the average age of schools that have been rebuilt, the average age of schools that have been extensively remodelled and the average age of the schools that are being refurbished? I would like to believe-though it may not be true-that the oldest ones have been the ones that have been rebuilt.4
Mr Byles: I can tell you straight away that that is not necessarily the case. There have been schools built in the fifties and sixties in particular which have a less good life expectancy than those built before the turn of the previous century. Age is not a direct measure of condition or suitability to deliver modern teaching.
Q35 Dr Pugh: Is condition the other thing you take into account?
Mr Byles: There are several factors we take into account. Suitability to deliver the curriculum is one. Condition is also a factor, as is the opportunity to have the range of modern facilities that young people need beyond the core curriculum these days.
Q36 Dr Pugh: You said that it was very difficult to get the right people without paying them an awful lot of money to do the job. There was an old system, was there not, for building schools. It was called getting capital injection from the government. There would be a man in every local authority department who would be responsible for administering the project with more or less efficiency and more or less success. Now we have a different system altogether and I would like to be able to understand that system a little better. Some of the projects that have been implemented by Local Education Partnerships have been PFI, have they not, and some have been more orthodox capital approval projects. Are you able to compare them in terms of value for money? It is a long term liability for the local authority either way, either as a unit cost or in terms of credit repayments over a long period. In terms of value for money for individual local authorities, are you able to compare the PFI deals done so far against the ordinary capital approval schemes done so far?
Mr Byles: There is a direct comparison in terms of the cost per square metre on construction. This issue which I think is probably behind your question is what comes along with the PFI deal in terms of maintenance and lifecycle protection that does not necessarily apply with a design and build contract. What you are buying with a PFI scheme is not simply the value for money construction of the building but its proper maintenance throughout a 25 year period together with the facilities management that goes along with that.
Q37 Dr Pugh: I agree there will be a lot more in the PFI but just in terms of the building costs-
Mr Byles: In terms of cost per square metre, we have a good comparison. We use that data, PFI and design and build, in our benchmarking system.
Q38 Dr Pugh: What does it tell you?
Mr Byles: It tells us that our average cost of schools is running at about £1850 a square metre for both PFI and design and build schools, which is considerably less than some alternatives.
Q39 Dr Pugh: In terms of getting the building built per se it makes no difference?
Mr Byles: What I am describing to you, for the avoidance of doubt, is the above ground cost per square metre. Those are the figures that this Report uses.
Q40 Dr Pugh: The ordinary system of capital controls and so on does not come with a portfolio of consultants and other deals as well, does it? It is quite hard to compare. It is like comparing apples and pears. Can you tell us what data you have for breaking down not just simply the building costs but the other on-costs that are involved in PFI, just for the projects so far completed?
Mr Byles: I can certainly give you that information.5 The information I can give you now also concerns the repeat business that happens through a Local Education Partnership. The procurement you do with a LEP is for a number of schools over a ten year period. It is not simply a one off procurement. This report illustrates for you the increased pace in Lancashire for example of repeat procurements happening very much quicker and more cheaply than were these to be bought in sequence as design and build contracts.
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3 Ev 12
4 Ev 12
5 Ev 14