Q141 Mr Davidson: Yes, I can understand why they were saying that, but this was not a question of profits and losses arising from the original deal. This is a rejigging of it and it is a rejigging which extended the period and it made a number of changes, did it not?
Mr Coates: Yes, but you cannot say to the private sector on this particular transaction you made a whopping great profit and therefore we are taking it and on all the ones you made a loss that is your look out. You have to take these things in the round. The code is in the round-
Q142 Mr Davidson: In the round, that is a good one. On how many occasions then, in the round, have John Laing, Serco, 3i, Barclays, Innisfree actually made losses on any of the constructions?
Mr Coates: John Laing Construction went bankrupt after a PFI contract. They lost £40 million and the John Laing you see here is different to John Laing Construction.
Q143 Mr Davidson: So this is a different John Laing?
Mr Coates: It is.
Q144 Mr Davidson: So the other John Laing had nothing to do with that then?
Mr Coates: John Laing Construction that built the hospital is now owned by Laing O'Rouke Construction.
Q145 Mr Davidson: And the other companies?
Mr Coates: The rest are banks.
Q146 Mr Davidson: None of them have gone bust then because they never do, do they?
Mr Coates: Banks, no.
Q147 Mr Davidson: Right, I think I understand that extent of it. Can I just clarify in terms of the potential for striking a better deal-and I can understand why you settled for this voluntary deal because otherwise they were not going to give you anything at all- again, is this the limit of your ambition? Now that PFI deals are well stabilised and the risks are much more understood, you are quite happy to settle for a maximum of 50%, are you?
Mr Coates: I do understand the point you are making but I take the view that you have to see these things in the round and there is plenty of evidence in the private sector that they are not all making very handsome profits, and we cannot say to them the moment you make a profit we want to share it with you and when you make a loss it is your look out. We have to say in the round how can we share the benefits on something that sounds sensible, sounds equal and has equity about it? I think 50-50 sounds about right in these situations.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr Davidson. Alan Williams?
Q148 Mr Williams: Can I just ask the National Audit Office was this Report financed out of the value for money budget that you have?
Mr Burr: This study-
Q149 Mr Williams: Yes?
Mr Burr: Yes.
Q150 Mr Williams: Why is this not a value for money Report?
Mr Burr: It does not attempt to say categorically whether this was value for money but it does identify a number of risks to value for money.