Q211 Chairman: No, I expressed myself badly. I knew that you would immediately come back on me. I know it was not a management buyout, but what I am trying to get over to you is that here you had a minister you presumed was coming to this new. You should have stood back from it at that stage because it must have occurred to you that whatever you call it, whether you call it an injection of private equity or anything else, there was a real possibility there would be a conflict of interest and that you would benefit from this financially. Surely, in the traditions of our Civil Service, and we are about to celebrate 1,500 years in this Committee, and we celebrate the fact that we have an incorruptible Civil Service, is there no smidgeon of doubt in your mind that perhaps you acted wrongly at that stage?
Sir John Chisholm: There is not.
Q212 Chairman: That you did not act in the traditions of the traditional British Civil Service? There is no smidgeon of doubt in your mind?
Sir John Chisholm: No, there is not, sir. We were at far too early a stage and the proposition did not encompass that at that stage as a possibility.
Q213 Chairman: What about later ministers of defence procurement? When did Lord Gilbert leave?
Mr Woolley: 1998, I believe.
Q214 Chairman: This stage was carrying right on through 2002. At no stage did you say to ministers, "I am going to back out of this now because I might stand to be enriched personally"?
Mr Jeffrey: As I said earlier, Chairman, by that stage we had moved into the period that I described, where the advice to ministers was coming principally-
Q215 Chairman: At what stage did Sir John then stop giving any advice to ministers? What year was it, what month?
Mr Jeffrey: The principal advice to ministers on this issue throughout 2001-02 was coming from Mr Woolley's predecessor as Finance Director.
Q216 Chairman: At what stage did Sir John stop giving advice to ministers?
Mr Jeffrey: He remained involved in the process in the sense of contributing his views but the principal advice to ministers was-
Q217 Chairman: All right, so he was giving his advice to ministers? You have just said that. Till what date was he giving his advice to ministers?
Mr Jeffrey: Sir John?
Q218 Chairman: Mr Jeffrey, I asked you. Why can you not answer?
Mr Jeffrey: If what you wish is a date, Chairman, then I had better-
Q219 Chairman: I do not understand what you are saying because it is now clear to me that you first of all a couple of minutes ago suggested to me that at an early stage he withdrew from all this. You are now saying that he was giving advice to ministers throughout this process.
Mr Jeffrey: What I am saying is that the thing was set up in such a way that the principal advice to ministers and the submissions to ministers about the sale to Carlyle were coming from the Finance Director and the team that reported to ministers.
Q220 Chairman: Maybe the principal advice, but he was still continuing to give advice throughout this process?
Mr Jeffrey: He was still-