Q41 Jon Trickett: Are you aware?
Ms McHale: I have been made aware quite recently and suggested that I will take that up with Mapeley. I am certain that Mapeley will look at that constructively.
Q42 Jon Trickett: I have had three separate organisations drawn to my attention who Mapeley refused permission. They all seem to have legitimate reasons to be in the building. It would be helpful if you could provide us with a note and I will compare it with the information which I have received, which I will provide to the Chair.3 Are you aware that Mapeley are preventing staff functions from taking place on buildings, normal functions like retirement parties and so on, if they want to bring food and other matter onto the site? That is being prevented by Mapeley.
Ms McHale: If it is helpful, some of the issues here are associated with the contract bedding down and getting to know each other. Some of these are purely around communication. For instance, I myself was made aware of the issues on access for third parties. I have recently been made aware of access for parties and functions and such like. I think that as part of the relationship that Jamie and I have we should be exploring that.
Q43 Jon Trickett: The answer is yes, you are aware of problems?
Ms McHale: We are aware and we are dealing with it.
Jon Trickett: I have been provided with information which I think is worrying if the Civil Service have lost control of what happens in the ordinary course of their business within the building. I do not know why that should cause hilarity on your part, Mr Varney, but it clearly does.
Q44 Jim Sheridan: Why did it take three years to appoint a contract manager?
Mr Varney: I think we have come to a situation where we have looked at how to be a customer and what we found was that it required professional expertise that we did not have in-house.
Q45 Jim Sheridan: It has taken three years to make that decision?
Mr Varney: Yes, three years to bed this down and we have removed some problems off the table but in the nature of a contract like this we are going to be working on problems and opportunities as we go through the life of the contract.
Q46 Jim Sheridan: Picking up the PCS on the morale of the Civil Service, some of these problems could have been addressed if you had appointed somebody earlier.
Mr Varney: With the benefit of hindsight, I think that would have been wise.
Q47 Jim Sheridan: Is that a second benefit of hindsight?
Mr Varney: Hindsight is a powerful thing.
Q48 Jim Sheridan: You will also be aware that concerns have been raised over the two tier workforce. People have been transferred are people who have come in under lower contracts. Is that something that you think is acceptable?
Mr Varney: If it was part of the arrangement, I think some people did move across because they were doing work which was no longer to be done by us in terms of maintaining our own estate.
Q49 Jim Sheridan: Would you agree that that does damage morale when people are working on two different contracts?
Mr Varney: I am sure some people are unhappy about it. I think the issue we have is, with the pressures on us in terms of costs and everything else, whether it is our business to be running an estate on our own or whether we should go out and procure from the market people who are more professional at it than we are.
Q50 Jim Sheridan: This point concerns the tendering process. I find it incredible that neither the Treasury nor the Customs and Excise were involved, even from the Treasury perspective. I know you said that with the benefit of hindsight you have learned something. What are those things that you have learned?
Mr Varney: I think the NAO Report is absolutely clear in terms of recommendations for the department that are laid out, in terms of what we have to do, in terms of managing the risk and learning also about procedures in the event of termination and, on the other side, there are the lessons for other PFI deals for all departments.
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