Q81 Mr Steinberg: Are you telling us that you will never know how much you have saved?
Mr Varney: At the end of 20 years you will face the same problem. You have to think about what you would have done and what is the alternative. As time goes on, you make decisions. You either reflect them back or you say, "I make the right decision here for value for money…" -
Q82 Mr Steinberg: In 20 years' time you will be asking these same questions.
Ms Ghosh: We are going to work with the NAO to try and pin down these issues rather more closely. The Report is a snapshot of where we were at that moment. As the estate expands or contracts, the issues will be different. As the costs of utilities change, that will be different. We are about to embark on a piece of work with NAO colleagues and therefore we can map it and -
Q83 Mr Steinberg: I would suggest not to get in the habit of Sir Nick and try to talk us out. Jim talked a lot about consultants. How much did the consultants cost you?
Mr Varney: Since the contract was signed, £1.8 million.
Q84 Mr Steinberg: What about before?
Mr Varney: £7.5 million.
Q85 Mr Steinberg: Nine million quid?
Mr Varney: £8.8, yes.
Q86 Mr Steinberg: That is nearly £9 million out of the first year's profits?
Mr Varney: Yes, and it is out of a £3.4 billion contract.
Q87MrSteinberg: We are talking about whether the taxpayer is getting a fair deal. Mr Hopkins, have you come back for any money yet? You will, will you not?
Mr Hopkins: We initially did.
Q88 Mr Steinberg: How much was that?
Mr Hopkins: It was around £27 million a year.
Q89 Mr Steinberg: You have asked for another £27 million a year. That is the profit gone. We are now minus £10 million a year.
Mr Hopkins: We did originally. That was based around some of the changes that you find on an estate of that size. Subsequently we have funded that ourselves and we are in conversations now over variations and changes, so there has been no additional money paid.
Q90 Mr Steinberg: Are you going to give us a guarantee this afternoon that your company will not come back to the taxpayer and ask for more money at the length of this contract, other than what you have signed for?
Mr Hopkins: Apart from where they change the service delivery or they are in buildings where they said they were not, absolutely.