Q111 Mr Bacon: Mr Hopkins, the Report says in paragraph 3.25 that you think the charges under the PMS are punitive and therefore an unfair contract term. If that is the case, why did you sign this contract?
Mr Hopkins: We signed the contract because there was a performance measurement system that was given to all of the bidders to bid on. We took that in good faith and we knew what we were entering into.
Q112 Mr Bacon: Only afterwards did you say it was unfair.
Mr Hopkins: Absolutely. An estate that has been managed internally for probably over 50 years that then transfers to the private sector and you do not know how many calls you are going to be receiving on the help desk or how many orders you are going to be getting -the fairness is not all about just a penalty. The fairness is about making sure that it aligns us as a partnership so that we move forward and make sure things are being done properly. It is not just about the penalty.
Q113 Mr Bacon: Can I draw your attention to page 28, paragraph 3.3? It talks about staff turnover and points out that on both sites a lot of staff have moved on after the deal was signed. I was particularly caught by the fact that in Mapeley there were four services directors within seven months of the contract going live. Why was that?
Mr Hopkins: I think what that means is that four services directors across various services of Mapeley were employed at that time.
Q114 Mr Bacon: And left?
Mr Hopkins: No; were employed as direct managers of services, property and FM procurement. That was my reading of that statement.
Q115 Mr Bacon: It looks to me like the National Probation Service implementation of their information system strategy had seven programme managers in seven years and by that we understood there was one; then there was another and then there was another. You are saying that is not what that means?
Mr Hopkins: My understanding was that it meant we employed four separate service managers in various areas of the business.
Q116 Mr Bacon: Perhaps the NAO can turn that up. Is that what it means? It looks to me very much like there was one and then there was another.
Mr Colman: Our information is that that is what Mapeley told us so if Mr Hopkins says it means that then presumably he knows.
Q117 Mr Bacon: Nonetheless, it does seem there have been quite a lot of staff changes. A number of key staff members have moved on. The project board director and the deputy director moved on. Three of the four most senior procurement staff moved on very soon after contract signature, leaving only one key member of the original STEPS team still involved in the deal. Then it goes onto management changes at Mapeley. What have you done to try and ensure some sort of continuity, never mind succession planning?
Mr Varney: With Siobhán coming, we have been building a team up. It is my commercial experience that when you do a procurement deal the people who do the procurement are not the people who operate the deal. There is a different set of skills. I think there is a very clear caution in the Report for other departments doing this to concentrate on having in place early the people who are going to operate the deal, so that there is a proper hand over.
Q118 Mr Bacon: You mentioned, Mr Varney, the Aspire contract which I understand is going to take over and essentially the one that Customs has with Fujitsu will get merged into the main Aspire contract, probably with Cap Gemini. Is that right?
Mr Varney: Possibly. They are talking. The Aspire contract is Cap Gemini with the Inland Revenue.
Q119 Mr Bacon: Basically, you want to get rid of the PFI contract with Customs and concentrate on the Aspire contract?
Mr Varney: I am happy for the two parties to talk to each other first. I want to consider very carefully what is in our interests in terms of value for money.
Q120 Mr Bacon: What worries me is you are going to compensate Fujitsu -I think we do have some experience on this Committee -for no longer having its PFI contract, merge it all into the Aspire contract with Cap Gemini, of whom the main subcontractor is Fujitsu.
Mr Varney: I think you and I may share a similar concern.