Q91 Mr Bacon: I just have a couple more questions. First of all, I asked you Mr Kingman whether Mr McKechnie was indeed not a burden on the public purse, to which you answered, "We have a contract with Deloitte, as you would expect". Am I to take it from that-I do not want to use the word "burden"' because it is tendentious-am I to take it that the contract entails the Treasury paying Deloitte money for Mr McKechnie's services?
Mr Kingman: Yes.
Q92 Mr Bacon: How much?
Mr Kingman: That is a contractual matter between us and Deloitte I am afraid.
Q93 Mr Bacon: It is public money, is it not?
Mr Kingman: It is indeed public money.
Q94 Mr Bacon: Why can you not tell me?
Mr Kingman: It is not a figure I can disclose without discussing it with Deloitte.
Q95 Mr Bacon: Why not? The contract for the Treasury PFI building, for example, involved a lot of consultancy, all kinds of consultancy, and you paid a lot of money, many millions of pounds for it and that was public money. You disclosed that. Why is this any different? My salary is a matter of public record and that of all MPs.
Mr Kingman: It would not be appropriate for me to disclose; I am not in any way embarrassed about the number.
Q96 Mr Bacon: It might represent good value for money but it seems to me it is public money and we ought to be able to know what you are paying Deloitte for the Head of PFI Policy. It seems to me a perfectly reasonable question. Somebody else is nodding behind you.
Mr Kingman: I am very happy to discuss with Deloitte whether it is something they are willing for me to disclose.
Chairman: When you have discussed it, send us a note.2
Q97 Mr Bacon: I would like to go back to the net present value, £91 billion going forward, of annual unitary charge payments. How much of that is capital?
Mr Kingman: I am afraid I do not have that figure. I would be happy to send you a note on it.3
Mr McKechnie: The total capital value of the PFI programme is £56.9 billion.
Q98 Mr Bacon: So roughly £34 billion is other stuff of one kind or another. Is that right?
Mr McKechnie: You could say that.
Q99 Mr Bacon: So that is £56 billion in net present value terms, is it?
Mr McKechnie: £56 billion is the capital value. It is not a net present value figure, it is a capital value.
Mr Kingman: I am not sure that is on the same basis as the £91 billion.
Q100 Mr Bacon: I want to know what basis it is on because actually the cash payments going forward are £170 billion of cash going out, spread out over N number of years, are they not? What is the £56 billion in relation to that?
Mr McKechnie: For those projects, the capital value, in other words the amount that was spent to build those projects, is £56.9 billion.
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2 Note by witness: The Committee asked how much public money was paid to Deloitte under the contract covering Gordon McKechnie's secondment to the Treasury. The Treasury pay Deloitte £150,000 per annum for Gordon McKechnie's full-time services as Head of PFI Policy.
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