Q141 Matthew Hancock: I mean some of them are unhappy.
Peter Coates: 77% said they were very happy with the services provided by the Department.
Q142 Matthew Hancock: Which means that 100% minus 77% aren't. My point is that the whole country is going through a very difficult process, but from your answers I gather that you are not looking to try to get anything out of things that are signed off though PFI. I'm astonished that you don't get your PFI providers into a room and say, "Right, we're in a mess and we need to try to sort it out. I would like 5% out of each of you." Some Departments are having to do far more than 5%. Wouldn't that be reasonable?
Peter Coates: I accept we could try.
Q143 Stella Creasy: It's not the Government who deal with it. You're not negotiating the contracts are you?
Peter Coates: They're not our contracts.
Chair: It's the trusts.
Matthew Hancock: No, no-
Mr Bacon: Hang on a minute. Mr Hancock is describing what you and the Treasury did over refinancing. For many of the early contracts where there was no refinancing clause included in the contract, you collectively went to the industry-I see Mr Humpherson nodding-and you said, "We want a share of this. We want 30% by the way, so we will have a 30/70 split and it will rise, and on new contracts it will be 50/50, then it will go 70/30 to us."
But on the ones that were the earlier contracts where there was no legal right you said, "We're going to have it anyway. By the way, we have the force in the market if you ever want to work in this town again," and you got it. That is what Mr Hancock's talking about.
Peter Coates: I don't think he is, with respect.
Matthew Hancock: I am actually.
Peter Coates: I thought we were talking about hotel service, I beg your pardon.
Q144 Matthew Hancock: Whether through financing or through improving efficiency in the delivery, across Government at the moment an exercise is under way to squeeze more out of suppliers, and PFI contractors are suppliers. You seem to be giving me the impression that you are not in that process. You have only four people working on it. Even under the new arrangements that you hope to bring in there is only £500,000, which doesn't buy you dozens of people, and I'm astonished that you are not looking for efficiencies here when the whole country is looking for efficiencies in every other part of life.
Q145 Stephen Barclay: Even the Report flags this. The Report says there is a lack of central data on the performance of the PFI portfolio; this restricts the Department's ability to assess value for money and to target all four of its resources towards assisting trusts most in need of help.
Q146 Matthew Hancock: I mean even the Department for International Development is trying to get better value for its money.
Peter Coates: I didn't say we weren't trying to get better value for money. To take refinancing in term, when refinancings occur in trusts we support them fully through that process and agree the refinancing terms to determine that they are consistent with the market and best value for money. The question is then how far down the line you go with support services in 250 trusts that are continuously re-letting contracts for hotel services on a one a week, two a week, three times a week basis.
Q147 Matthew Hancock: And they are being picked apart by a oligopolistic supplier base and then hundreds of different trusts.
Peter Coates: The trusts then tender those services on the open market and the data we have coming back for this year shows that costs have gone down.
Q148 Matthew Hancock: By 8% you mentioned earlier.
Peter Coates: To think that we can sit over the NHS like some great web, manipulating when they go to tender for their catering or when they go tender for their support services-it is just not possible for us to do that.
Q149 Matthew Hancock: You can support them in coming together to make sure that they face their suppliers effectively and get the most out of their suppliers that they can.
Peter Coates: When they ask us to do that, we do do it.
Q150 Matthew Hancock: But you have only four people.
Peter Coates: But 70% of the trusts say that's adequate and that it meets their requirements.