Q161 Mr Gibb: When we were talking about the discrepancy between the forecast population of 91,200 and the uncrowded capacity of 69,500 by 2006, you said that you could not build your way out of the problem. You referred in other answers to the advice you were giving to ministers. Why is your advice to ministers not to build more prisons, in fact a significant building programme, given that in America they have one million people in prisons and the population of the States is five times that of Britain, to be conservative, and that would mean we would have 200,000, on that basis, in British prisons compared with 73,000. I am not saying we should replicate the American system here, but surely, given the social trends, that is where we are heading and your advice to ministers not to build their way out of this problem strikes me as very complacent.
Mr Narey: I do not think that is quite right. I have had very significant investment to build new prison places, both expanding public sector prisons and building new house blocks and wings and also in building new prisons at Peterborough and Ashford on the way. By any measure, the amount of money which has been dedicated to building those places by government has been very considerable. It is true that the population has grown and overtaken that expansion. Whether we should follow the American model is a matter for ministers and parliament rather than for me, but I would just mention that in a number of American states now, they are very much regretting the expansion of the prisons they had and are shutting prisons, because they now find them unaffordable. In California, for example, they spend more on prisons than on higher education. In a number of American states, California included, prisons are being shut and there are some quite dramatic early release regimes to take prisons permanently out of those places which, as tax revenues have dipped in the USA, states have found to be unaffordable.
Q162 Mr Gibb: Crime is plummeting in the United States.
Mr Narey: Crime is falling in the UK as well.
Q163 Mr Gibb: Whereas it is not here. If you look at these figures, look at 2006, 2005, 2004, the uncrowded capacity increases from 67,000 to 69,500 in three years. Why is that evidence of what you have just been saying about putting more prisons on line? There is no evidence there of more prisons on line, it is an increase of 2,500, it is nothing.
Mr Narey: A better example is to look at the actual number of additional prisoners being absorbed over that period, which is much more significant.
Q164 Mr Gibb: Let us do that. From 2004 it is 75,000 on a crowded basis, going up to 77,500 by 2006 on a crowded basis. That is 2,500 too according to a Parliamentary Answer.
Mr Narey: Places are under way at the moment. We will open 400 new places at Birmingham later this year, we will open new places at Peterborough and Ashford. We have plans to have competitions for new prisons in the north-west and in south-east London. There is a building programme which has been going on for some time.
Q165 Mr Gibb: Which is leading to these figures of 67,000 to 69,500 after 2006. This is a Parliamentary Answer. How long does it take to build a prison? Does it take more than three years to build a prison?
Mr Narey: It depends on what sort of difficulties we have with planning permission. It has taken a very long time to build a prison at Peterborough, because of acute local opposition.
Q166 Mr Gibb: Nothing you have said is not in these figures and these figures show a very, very small amount of prison building, 67,000 up to 69,500 or 75,000 up to 77,500 on a crowded basis, an increase of 2,500 over three years in terms of prison places. The prison population in that same period is going up by 10,000. What is going on?
Mr Narey: Clearly that is a matter for ministers rather than for me.
Q167 Mr Gibb: This is the advice you are giving.
Mr Narey: Ministers have to decide how much of the money they spend on the criminal justice system they want to spend on new prison places.
Q168 Mr Gibb: They lean on your advice, do they not, as the expert in this area?
Mr Narey: In part on my advice, yes.
Q169 Mr Gibb: What is your advice on this issue?
Mr Narey: My advice has been that if we are to take and absorb more prisoners, we will need more places.
Q170 Jon Trickett: Ms O'Dea, you have been in the public service for, what, 18 years?
Ms O'Dea: Yes.