Q171 Jon Trickett: Now a year or so in the private sector. Do you feel, coming to a private prison which had difficulties, those private sector management practices in there have been an advantage or not? How might you compare the two cultures if you are going to stabilise a public sector prison as opposed to a private sector prison? Do you feel there were differences and were they helpful or not?
Ms O'Dea: Some of the problems were the same, such as prison staff sickness which was a huge problem at Swansea prison which had to be tackled. Staff sickness there was because staff felt they were entitled to be sick, they could go sick, that was what they did. Staff were not sick at Ashfield because they were frightened or anxious and there was a difference. That had to be tackled. What was your question?
Q172 Jon Trickett: What I was trying to understand was whether or not being in a private prison meant you as the senior manager on site had advantages and maybe disadvantages? Just so we can get a feel for it.
Ms O'Dea: Yes, there are some advantages. For instance, in terms of purposeful activity and counting where the boys are, in Swansea it is bits of paper which go into a clerk. Premier had problems accounting for that. Money was no object. I have this computer device where the kids cards are scanned, it speaks to a regime monitoring computer, I get accurate information by the hour about where the kids are and what they are doing. At Swansea I had bits of paper and I had to trust that people were filling them in diligently and that they were where they should be. There are some advantages: things move very quickly and technology is very pioneering compared with some of the public sector. In Ashfield the level of scrutiny, the level of audit, the level of monitoring, the level of Home Office compliance on site, has sometimes been quite difficult because I did not have the freedom. In Swansea, if a kid was being disruptive, I would do something about that. I now have to go and ask if I want to move this boy to here.
Q173 Jon Trickett: I am sorry to pursue this but I think we ought to give you a chance to point out the differences, since we are supposed to be discussing this and you are the expert. Was the freedom you felt in the public sector because you are now in a prison which was in crisis, or because the regime the prison service is imposing on the private sector is much more arduous than it is in public sector prisons?
Ms O'Dea: The regime at Ashfield is more arduous and it is monitored much more strictly.
Q174 Jon Trickett: Because it was private sector or because it was a prison in crisis?
Ms O'Dea: Yes, because it was in the private sector. Swansea also was a prison in crisis; Swansea was a poor performing prison, but I was given strategic objectives and left to get on with it.
Q175 Jon Trickett: So you feel the prison service imposes more onerous-
Ms O'Dea: Much more rigorous and much more exacting and frequent checks. I cannot wing it and I cannot fluff it.
Q176 Chairman: I also wanted to ask you a question to give you more of a chance to give us the benefit of your experience. Why are assault rates in PFI prisons high? Is it because there is better reporting, or what?
Ms O'Dea: I am not complacent about assaults, but it is very rigorous reporting. If I do not report I am fined 50 points, whereas when I do report and someone is found guilty of assault I am fined 20 points. So I am inclined to report almost everything. You have to bear in mind that at Ashfield there is a famous orange story. A kid throws an orange to you and you throw it back. That is two assaults. In another life I would put that boy on report for throwing food and that is taboo; you should not throw food. There is a level of "We had better report assault things because if we don't, we'll be accused of trying to hide and fudge the figures". If you compare that chart with 74% at Ashfield, with other juvenile prisons, the levels of assault are higher in juvenile establishments. It is about fear of not reporting.
Q177 Chairman: I am worried that where we do discover good practice, as the NAO Report shows in private prisons, there does not seem to be as much read-across into public prisons as you might expect. Is this a problem? Do you think the public sector is not learning as much good practice from the private sector as they should?
Ms O'Dea: We do share that. I go to the area meetings of other juvenile establishments and we talk about best practice and we do share ideas. I am invited to go to look at Feltham which has a really good this, or look at whichever prison has a really good that. It is not taboo, that we cannot go to look and see.
Q178 Chairman: And it is happening, there is enough read-across?
Ms O'Dea: Yes; yes.
Q179 Chairman: It works both ways?
Ms O'Dea: Yes.
Q180 Mr Osborne: Why do you think that the private sector had to go and get an experienced public sector governor? Why is there a lack of experience within PFI to bring in troubleshooters like Ms O'Dea?
Mr Beeston: It is simply a question of time. The private sector prisons do only make up 10% of the overall prison estate, so clearly in terms of drawing experienced managers, 90% of the available talent is within the public sector arena currently and only 10% within the private sector arena. That is changing and will change. Most of the next tier down within the prisons has been drawn from private sector. They have not been brought in from the public sector. It is only a matter of time before we have a governor appointed to a private sector prison from within the private sector.
Mr Banks: I would endorse that. We are a very young industry and even in the time we have been in operation, the number of senior managers who are now home grown has dramatically increased from when we started.
Chairman: Lady and gentlemen, thank you very much for appearing before us. We are very grateful. I am sorry that some of the other witnesses have not has had as much to say because of the usual excellent performance from Mr Narey, who is clearly passionately committed to the service. We are very grateful to you and to your staff for the very difficult job you do. Once again thank you for what you do in very difficult circumstances. We are also passionate about trying to improve conditions in our prisons. We are committed to the public being protected, but we remain very concerned about the high level of re-offending and are anxious that any lessons learned in the private sector do read across into the public sector. Clearly that is starting to happen and for that we are very grateful. Thank you very much for a very interesting hearing.