Q11 Chair: We will ask Mr Rutnam why on earth he is moving you, but from all that experience-2008 to 2013, so you've been at it for five years-what have you learned? What would you do differently?
Michael Hurn: The real headline is that the more you can plan up front, the better. You learn the lessons from other projects and benchmark to other projects, not just in the UK but around the world. You do the thinking, the planning and the scenario testing up front, so you get right not just the construction, but the sequencing of the work and how that links in with realising the benefits-it's all about benefits realisation-and the systems integration between train and the infrastructure. All that planning work pays huge dividends in terms of getting confidence about delivery to time and to budget.
In terms of the first phase of the project, it is fair to say that we did not do enough up-front planning work. A lot of work was done in preparing the planning permissions, but in terms of moving into the construction phase, it took a bit of time in terms of shifting the mindset to much more focus on how it would be built, in terms of detail phasing and moving away from the planning.
We have applied a lot of those lessons to the second phase of the project, which is really about rebuilding London Bridge station and the signalling interface between the train and the infrastructure. A lot more work was done on how London Bridge would be planned, and the NAO Report talks about resequencing of the work at London Bridge-a longer period to build the works. Our initial view was that the programme would be undeliverable in the end, because it had not been fully tested with the train operators as to how you do the construction work while keeping the station fully open. There is a real balance to be struck. It is one of the busiest stations in the UK. It does not just serve London Bridge; it serves Cannon Street and Charing Cross-two other very big termini.
Overall, huge amounts of lessons were learned, not just by the Department for Transport, but by the rail industry as a whole. This project is very much about coming together as a rail industry and delivering as a rail industry, and being quite can-do about that- overcoming obstacles and having that mindset. We are applying that to the second phase of the project as a way of ensuring confidence about delivery, which I am sure you will want to ask questions about later. But the real learning is about better planning and better integration with our delivery partners. That is our real focus.
Q12 Chair: Okay. Anything from the other two witnesses on that? What have you learned? What would you do differently?
David Higgins: I have only been in the role for two and a half years. I think the issue is that this is a high-profile and political project as well, so it requires strong co-ordination-both the Department and the Mayor. You talk about planning. It took two years to get planning approval for London Bridge and there were lots of legal challenges. There had to be close determination to make sure that we got through the planning process and satisfied all the issues of local communities, particularly community engagement and local employment.
Q13 Chair: How many people are there in your team looking at this?
Michael Hurn: It is worth talking about the different elements of my team. There are five in my core team.
Q14 Chair: Out of how many people working on rail in the Department?
Philip Rutnam: Roughly 250-something like that.
Q15 Chair: Only five?
Michael Hurn: I have a core team of five, but I have many other people across the Department who are providing support from a legal, technical and financial perspective and who supplement that team. Very importantly, I also have a range of external consultants providing support on a whole range of issues-not just rolling stock procurement, but, for example, assuring ourselves on Network Rail's costs in terms of the infrastructure work. Also very importantly-I touched on this earlier-we have our rail industry partners working on this. It should not be seen as just about the Department for Transport: it is very much a case of First Capital Connect, as the incumbent train operator for Thameslink, working in partnership with us, as well as, obviously, Network Rail and the wider rail industry-train operators that run, for example, the Southern train company and the Southeastern train company. They are absolutely integral to the success of this project. I don't see it as just a group of people within the Department for Transport. Yes, they are very important, but there is also a huge range of other people from across the rail industry, and the success of this project is very much down to them, as well.
Q16 Chair: Given that it is one of your higher profile projects, I am astounded it is only five. How long have they all been there? Just run through them quickly.
Michael Hurn: It ranges from about six months to about four years for those individuals. We have recently brought in a very experienced deputy director who will look particularly at the systems integration work for the second phase of the project. It is also very important to get across-
Q17 Chair: That was after you had been told off by the gateway review?
Michael Hurn: That was in the summer of last year, yes. There have been a number of assurance reports that have indicated that the core team is tight for resource, but as I mentioned, I am not just managing it thinking purely about the core team; it is about all those other categories of staff resource.
Q18 Chair: How much have you spent on external consultants since you have been there-since 2008?
Michael Hurn: Since May 2010, about £28 million on external consultants.
Q19 Chair: And since 2008-actually, since we had the go-ahead, which you said was 2005?
Michael Hurn: I'm afraid I don't have those figures to hand. I have the number from 2010, which is £28 million. I can provide that figure to you in a written answer.
Q20 Chair: We would be grateful for that. Of your core team, how many know about railways?
Michael Hurn: All of them know about railways.