Q21 Chair: And you? Were you born and bred-
Michael Hurn: I have been involved in projects since I left university.
Q22 Chair: In?
Michael Hurn: First, I had 10 years in London Underground working on very major projects-for example, the Jubilee line extension project and the East London line extension project, which I led and got the planning permissions for. I also spent four years at the Strategic Rail Authority; the most significant part of that was the east coast main line upgrade project, a big, multi-billion pound project. I joined the Department for Transport in 2005, when the Strategic Rail Authority folded into the DfT. Ever since then, I have been doing London projects. My involvement in Thameslink has actually been since 2005, but I have been the SRO since 2008. I spent a lot of time on the King's Cross programme, which a major upgrade of King's Cross station and the underground works, and a big property development there-I did a lot of negotiations with a whole range of third parties to do a big property deal. Last year, I was promoted to director, with responsibility for a number of other projects-Crossrail and the intercity express programme. So my professional background is projects and rail.
Q23 Chair: Why on earth are you moving him, Mr Rutnam?
Philip Rutnam: There are two factors-
Chair: We don't approve.
Philip Rutnam: Michael has obviously been SRO on this programme for five years, and everybody needs a fresh challenge at some point.
Q24 Chair: We strongly disagree with that. You should be able to reward him in his job, and he should see it through.
Philip Rutnam: I think there is a key moment associated with the Thameslink programme attached to getting the rolling stock project to contract award. That is a key milestone.
Chair: We will come back to the rolling stock.
Philip Rutnam: The two factors in my mind are these. First, everybody deserves to have a fresh challenge from time to time. Five years is a long time to be doing one role. Secondly, in terms of the calls on the Department as a whole, I am keen that Michael, given his depth of experience, which you have just heard about, turns his abilities to the challenges we face on HS2, where the same sorts of disciplines are needed. I am pleased to say that we have appointed a successor to Michael-a very talented and capable lady, who, I am sure, will do a very good job in leading the team that Michael has led to date. We have arranged a considerable handover period, so it is not as though Michael will be disappearing from the project one day and Becky Wood will pick it up the next day. Also, they will be within 30 feet or 50 feet of each other- in great proximity-so the opportunity for making sure that transfer of expertise continues will be there.
Q25 Jackie Doyle-Price: In a nutshell, what you have just said typifies the attitude in Whitehall to project management. You have approached this question on the basis that everyone needs a fresh challenge. From our perspective, our priority is making sure that projects get properly delivered on time with good value for money. There is a massive philosophical challenge within Whitehall to get to grips with this, because until the machine does it we are going to be looking at failure over and over again.
Philip Rutnam: I do not think that is fair, actually. First of all, as you will have seen, Michael has been in the role of SRO for five years and has been involved in the project for eight years. The Chair's opening words referred to the fact that there has been a lot of continuity there. Taking that approach, having continuity in our SROs, having expert SROs and building capability in our SRO community are right at the heart of the way in which I am trying to manage the Department.
I do not want to go into too much detail, but there is also a human dimension to this in terms of making sure that people can continue to develop their skills as well as making sure that the organisation as a whole is deploying its finite resources in the very best way.
Q26 Chair: Did you ask to leave?
Michael Hurn: I did ask to move on at the appropriate time-that's right. I am very passionate about this project.
Q27 Chair: We just think it is bad. If you have the opportunity, you ought to be able to reward him there. Tell me if I am wrong, but I would suggest to you that this is more to do with the fact that you have a massive investment programme-we are going to be tackling other stuff in a couple of weeks-and you have not got sufficient skills. So here you are with somebody who-I am going to flatter you, Mr Hurn-since he has been managing the project has got it in amazingly on time and in budget. You ain't got enough of those skills elsewhere to do all the other big things you want to undertake.
Philip Rutnam: You are right that we have a massive programme; I completely agree with that. It is a very big challenge, but I can assure you that with the change of SRO in this case, the management of the succession planning has been very carefully thought through. There is a key inflection point now, with the prospective contract award for the rolling stock. The next inflection point is 2018, to my mind. So you either say to somebody, "You have been on this project since 2005 and you can stay on it till 2018," or you make a change now. These are complex things and you have to balance a number of different factors, but we have been very candid with you about the two key factors we have in mind.
Q28 Jackie Doyle-Price: What interested me about you, Mr Hurn, when you gave us your potted professional history, is that you obviously have brilliant project management skills but they have been learnt outside Whitehall. Can I ask what the background of the new SRO is? Is she a Whitehall person or is she somebody with a good project management background as well?
Philip Rutnam: I think Michael is probably better placed to answer. I can say something, but he can probably give you more detail.
Michael Hurn: She has an extensive background in project management. She has been involved in the Crossrail project, not last year, but for about three years beforehand. She has extensive experience in managing partners-for example, Crossrail Limited and Transport for London-as part of that project, and understands very well the need to engage with stakeholders and the issue of working with the industry as a whole. So she is a very experienced individual.
Q29 Jackie Doyle-Price: Has that experience come from the Department, or does she have experience from outside?
Michael Hurn: She was at the Strategic Rail Authority for a period of time as well, outside the Department. She also has private sector experience from beyond the Strategic Rail Authority.
Q30 Chair: How big was your core team in 2008?
Michael Hurn: My core Thameslink team was about eight people in 2008.